No, although most critics of the SDA Church
Most Adventists would probably affirm that Ellen White had the spiritual gift of prophecy, as officially outlined in SDA fundamental belief #18:
“18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)”
However, as to what manner of ‘prophet’ Ellen White was, there is a variety of opinions held within the SDA Church
· Verbal-dictation view: Those who hold almost every oral or written word, whether made in public or private is infallible and inerrant word of God.
· Doctrinal-confirmation view: Those who emphasise Ellen White’s limitations as a human being, albeit an inspired one. Many who propose this stance believe she had a theological role in confirming, but not initiating, proposition truth based on appropriate Biblical studies.
· Pastoral-devotional view: Those who believe Ellen White was not empowered to give doctrinal propositions, but primary functioned to edify, strengthen and encourage the early movement in the model suggested in the New Testament (1 Cor 14:1-4).
George R Knight, Professor of Adventist Church History at Andrews University, writing in Graeme Bradford’s People are Human (2006, p11-12), argues that Adventists have largely brought outside criticism on themselves. In particular, since Ellen White's death in 1915, the SDA Church
“The past 35 years have seen a revolution in Ellen White studies. The revolution in Ellen White studies. The revolution began with articles in Spectrum in the early 1970s, but it leapt into public vision in a large way with the publication of Ronald Number’s Prophetess of Health in 1976 and Walter Rea’s The White Lie in 1982. The first of those books asserted that not only was Ellen White a child of her times in regard to many of her ideas of health, but that she had drawn significantly upon the ideas of health reformers of her day in her writings. The second book sought to demonstrate that Ellen White’s borrowing for such books as The Desire of Ages and Patriarchs and Prophets was extensive.
The combined effect of those two books and the Spectrum articles was the intellectual equivalent of throwing a bomb into what had become into what had become since the 1920s the “settled understanding” of Ellen White and her gift.
It is of interest, however, that such a bomb would have been meaningless if it had detonated during much of Ellen White’s lifetime…
Adventism, in line with other conservative Protestants, went into a reactionary period in the 1920s. The openness of the 1919 meetings would give way to an unbiblical rigidity on the topic of inspiration in the 1920s. The upshots for Adventists understandings would be the nurturing of false understandings of inspiration and the development of a mythology relate to Ellen White.
Meanwhile, the extensive minutes of the 1919 Bible Conference with their very frank discussions of Ellen White and inspiration were “buried” in the General Conference building and would not be rediscovered for more than half a century.”
The type of thing that was discussed shortly after Ellen White’s death at the 1919 Bible Conference, but which was literally buried for over 50 years, include the following statement by then SDA General Conference President, A. G. Daniells:
“Well, now, as I understand it, Sister White never claimed to be an authority on history, and never claimed to be a dogmatic teacher on theology, like Mrs Eddy’s book on teaching. She just gave out fragmentary statements, but left the pastors and evangelists and preachers to work out all these problems of scripture and of theology and of history…” (emphasis added)
A.G. Daniells went on to discuss his understanding of the proper place for Mrs White's prophetic gift:
“In our estimate of the spirit of prophecy, isn’t its value to us more in the spiritual light it throws into our own hearts and lives than in the intellectual accuracy in historical and theological matters? Ought we not take those writings as the voice of the Spirit in our hearts, instead of the voice of the teacher to our heads? And isn’t the final proof of the spirit of prophecy its spiritual value rather than its historical accuracy?” (emphasis added)
J. N. Anderson almost prophetically warned that perpetuating the incorrect view of the literal verbal inspiration of Ellen White would one day produce a crisis within the Adventist Church
“Is it well to let out people in general go on holding to the verbal inspiration of the Testimonies? When we do that, aren’t we preparing for a crisis that will be very serious some day.” (emphasis added)
For further information on the 1919 Bible Conference:
For all the conjecture, it is important to take note of that Ellen White often played down her own role, calling herself a ‘lesser light’:
“Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light.”
Despite the mythology perpetuated by some Adventists and their critics, Ellen White never claimed to be infallible, perfect or without the possibility of error:
“I wish self to be crucified. I do not claim infallibility, or even perfection of Christian character. I am not free from mistakes and errors in my life. Had I followed my Saviour more closely, I should not have to mourn so much my unlikeness to His dear image.” (emphasis added, Letter 27, 1876, Ellen White to James White, May 16, 1876)
I find this really tricky. Growing up SDA, I was kind of taught that E White said was infallible. Then went I got older I did lots of research and discovered not 100% she said was true, and thus must have been false. Now that I am older still, I realise I was a little unfair to Ellen and swinging between two extremes.
ReplyDeleteI believe Ellen White had the contemporary gift of prophecy, which meant from time-to-time she had inspired visions. In fact, I believe that happens today more than people think, given it is a contemporary gift of the Spirit. However, as with the Bible writers, she was still a human being, and the words she used to write down those visions were fallible and limited, in the way words are by nature limited. Furthermore, I suspect all those letters they trot out from time-to-time she wrote are not infallible at all - just personal counsel from a godly woman trying to help people.
I'm Southern Baptist, but I have similar feelings. I have been considering becoming SDA, but I still have some reservations.
DeleteI respect Ellen White and I think Adventists make lots of good points, but some things about the church concern me.
I in between denominations, atm.
The SDA church has brought to light many things about the Word, that have been exciting, and I love the historical nature, and clarity of the interpretations of the Word. I think they have more clarity on prophecy interpretation than any other church. That said, Ellen White is lifted up too much, and even in a bible study, the story of a young man in a foreign country where he walked in to an Adventist church, and found all of these books on Ellen G White, and after reading them all, he went out and told everyone he knew about Ellen G. White. A good Christian would want to go out and proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ.
DeleteThat is the basis, in my opinion, that SDA invites criticism. Even a church who was built solely on Pauls writings would be in error, by not focusing on the person of Jesus Christ. Free Methodists do not go on and on daily, about John W. Sure he gets a mention now and then, but I think Ellen G White would be horrified, at how much of the focus is on her, and not the person of Jesus Christ. It could turn out to be the biggest error of the ages, if they aren't careful, it borders on idol worship. I say all of this as a person who attends SDA, but I do cringe at the number of times EGW is mentioned, and heralded. It is a mistake, and misleading.
To be truthful, I am a Seventh-day Adventist and I don't really believe in Ellen White. I also can't remember the last time I heard her name mentioned in a sermon at church - it must have been years.
ReplyDeleteEllen White's teachings are not equal with the Bible. I believe she had visions from God, but they were simply for the purpose of pointing people towards existing biblical truths, not creating new ones or adding to God's word. She was a human and not everything she said was infallible and God only used her to help start the SDA church. Her most important teachings can be found in the Bible and any extras are just commentaries that are useful, but not to be considered equal with the bible
Deleteif you attend sabbath school and study following the weekly lesson it is filled with egw
DeleteI appreciate Ellen's role in the church from a historic perspective and I believe she was ahead of her time with some of her writings, especially as it pertained to nutrition and health. But there it ends. I do not view her as a prophet and am not sold on the validity or importance of her visions. I have some difficulty with the prophet status of any contemporary church leader. The Mormons are sincere in their believing Joseph Smith's role in their church and many Adventists are sincere in their beliefs of Ellen being a prophet. Can both be prophets of God and representative of God's church? I think not. I believe God has used and continues to use individuals to relay His messages and truths. I am just not in a position to discern who they might be, therefore I will keep my focus on Him and on the gospel given to us via the Bible. And yes I am an Adventist (4th generation) but have no trouble rejecting particular SDA doctrines which I believe are not supported by biblical study or the leading of the holy spirit.
ReplyDeleteThankyou. The fact that you do not believe Ellen White is a prophet but you are still an Adventist (4th generation) just proves my point - Adventists don't all view Ellen White in the same way. The SDA Church is a 'broad church' with a wide theological spectrum - always has been and always will be. When people have anti-Adventist views, it is often because they have had a bad experience with a particular SDA person or SDA congregation, wrongly thinking that that is the only representation of the SDA Church and its people.
DeleteRe Ellen White, she never actually called herself 'a prophet'. Moreover, she has no more practical status in the SDA Church than does St Augustine and St Acquinas for Roman Catholics, Luther for Lutherans, Knox for Presbytereans and Wesley for Methodists. These were arguably 'inspired' men and their writings have been given official and semi-official status for guiding doctrine in these Churches.
As an example, the Uniting Church in Australia ascribes official doctrinal status to the 44 sermons of John Wesley:
"The Uniting Church continues to learn of the teaching of the Holy Scriptures in the obedience and freedom of faith, and in the power of the promised gift of the Holy Spirit, from the witness of the Reformers as expressed in various ways in the Scots Confession of Faith (1560), the Heidelberg Catechism (1563), the Westminster Confession of Faith (1647), and the Savoy Declaration (1658). In like manner the Uniting Church will listen to the preaching of John Wesley in his Forty-Four Sermons (1793). It will commit its ministers and instructors to study these statements, so that the congregation of Christ's people may again and again be reminded of the grace which justifies them through faith, of the centrality of the person and work of Christ the justifier, and of the need for a constant appeal to Holy Scripture."
http://www.uca.org.au/basisofunion.htm
Consider the position of the Uniting Church of Australia (a union of Presbyterean, Methodist and Congregationalist Churches, and the 2nd biggest denomination in Australia). In their statement of beliefs, under belief #10, they actually ascribe doctrinal status to the 44 sermons of John Wesley:
ReplyDelete"10. REFORMATION WITNESSES
The Uniting Church continues to learn of the teaching of the Holy Scriptures in the obedience and freedom of faith, and in the power of the promised gift of the Holy Spirit, from the witness of the Reformers as expressed in various ways in the Scots Confession of Faith (1560), the Heidelberg Catechism (1563), the Westminster Confession of Faith (1647), and the Savoy Declaration (1658). In like manner the Uniting Church will listen to the preaching of John Wesley in his Forty-Four Sermons (1793). It will commit its ministers and instructors to study these statements, so that the congregation of Christ's people may again and again be reminded of the grace which justifies them through faith, of the centrality of the person and work of Christ the justifier, and of the need for a constant appeal to Holy Scripture."
http://www.uca.org.au/basisofunion.htm
That position is not so different from the SDA Church towards the writings of Ellen White. Nor is it that different from how Roman Catholics view and use the writings of St Augustine and Thomas Aquinas and the other early Church Fathers, Lutherans view and use Luther, Reformed groups view John Calvin and John Knox, and Evangelical-Pentecostals use John Darby and Billy Graham.
I note Martin Luther compared himself to OT prophets, claimed he was a messenger from God, and that others might consider himself a prophet, although he was too humble to admit it:
ReplyDelete"Do we not read in the Old Testament that God commonly raised up only one prophet at a time? Moses was alone in the Exodus, Elijah was alone in King Ahab’s day, Elisha, after him, was alone, Isaiah was alone in Jerusalem, Hosea alone in Israel, Jeremiah alone in Judaea, Ezekiel alone in Babylon, and so forth. Even though they had many disciples, called “children of the prophets,” God never allowed more than one man alone to preach and rebuke the people......... I say not that I am a prophet, but I do say that the more they despise me and esteem themselves, the more reason they have to fear that I may be a prophet . . . If I am not a prophet, yet for my own self I am certain that the Word of God is with me and not with them, for I have the Scriptures on my side, and they have only their own doctrine. This gives me courage, so that the more they despise and persecute me, the less I fear them."
-(An Argument in Defense of All the Articles of Dr. Martin Luther Wrongly Condemned in the Roman Bull, 1521; from: Works of Martin Luther [PE], Vol. III, 12-14; translated by C. M. Jacobs)
And I note some Reformed people do consider people such as Augustine and John Calvin prophets:
http://www.galaxie.com/article/3247
This seems very similar to the SDA view of Ellen White. She never called herself a prophet either, although others used that term to describe her. She did claim to have a message from God though, expounded in the scriptures.
I like your comment, it sounds very sensible. It seems like a good idea, to keep our focus on Jesus Christ, as He was the Messiah. If we do this, it will keep us from error. I Follow Him, not prophets. NKJV John 3:30 says,"He must increase, but I must decrease." As humans, we can be sure we cannot trust even ourselves at times, John 16:13 King James Version (KJV)
Delete13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." God bless you Sam.
Adventist teach in their private schools to children that Ellen G. White was inspired and spoke with God. They teach every word as inspired and truth to be followed implicitly. No matter what a few may avow what you teach your children is what you believe. Her teachings have hurt many people. It has silenced people and sickened them for the Remnant Churchs sake.
ReplyDeleteI agree with anonymous. A lot of what the seventh day adventist religion practices I believe in whole heartedly but I have serious issues with ellen white's teachings and am offended in hearing pastor's quote her books to the point where I have not and will not commit to joining the sda church. It turns a lot of people off to them. I do not believe that she was a prophet and I do believe that she used many people's love of God to sell her books and build her following. I wish that they would abandon her teachings but unfortunately many people do not know any better and/or are afraid to show their true beliefs.
ReplyDeleteI have been a Seventh day Adventist for 16 years, having come from a Baptist background, and find so much of SDA beliefs spot-on with what I read the Bible to say. However, I have become very suspect of Mrs. White's teaching. Learning of how she lifted so much from other's writings. I feel when she said in her own writing how she "was shown" this or that, that "showing" was what she read from someone else's writing! Her implication was that it was spiritually given to her, when in fact it was something she read and then wrote as "from God". I really would like to find a seventh day church with beliefs the same as SDA, but without Ellen White. Where is that church? I once questioned the foot washing before communion, and found you just do not question anything!
ReplyDeleteI started going to an SDA church in September 2014, I too am not a member as I'm not into all the Ellen G writings. Not sure we need the foot washing but I don't suppose it does any harm.
DeleteI think there will be another remnant church before the end with people from all Christian denominations that just want truth. I'll start it if I have to.
Jeremiah 8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed. 9 For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name: I have not sent them, saith the LORD.
I have been searching for a church that strictly adheres to the Bible as the Adventists do, but without the addition of Ellen White's writings. I haven't found one yet, but the minute I do, I will be leaving the SDA church.
DeleteI think the church of God, 7th day might be the church you are looking for. They started in the same movement as the SDA church, but split because they didn't view ellen white as a prophet. They see her writing as truth mixed with error. Many of the beliefs are the same: both believe in salvation by grace, the 10 commandments are the standard for today and that the Sabbath should be observed. Both believe that people remain in the grave until Jesus comes. Both have the same view of hell.
DeleteThe difference: CoG7 does not believe 1844 has any special significance. they don't believe the investigative judgment teaching is valid. They believe the earth will be populated during the millennium and Christ will reign on the earth during that time. They believe Christmas and Easter are a compromise with pagan practices and should not be practiced. They believe that Jesus was crucified on Wednesday and rose late Sabbath evening.
https://cog7.org/about-us/frequently-asked-questions/what-are-the-differences-between-church-of-god-seventh-day-and-the-seventh-day-adventist-church/
Thank you I feel the same way as you ,your word speak truth, amazing
DeleteI am so incredibly relieved that there are other Adventists out there who view Ellen White the way I do. I love the Adventist church and I feel so torn right now. Part of me wants to leave, but I don't know where to go - since I believe all of our doctrinal beliefs are correct! I am a young woman who would like to get married, but how in the world am I supposed to find an
ReplyDeleteAdventist young man who agrees with my views on Ellen White? I feel so alone. I believe that Ellen White added a lot of detail to Scripture and I don't believe that is a Biblical thing to do. We are not to add to or take away from the Scriptures. She also set forth a lot of rules that I feel are very legalistic. All the rules we need are already in the Bible. I keep my opinions and views hushed unless directly asked. I wish there was some kind of support group for people like us! It would be wonderful to have a church just like the Adventist church, but without Ellen White. It simply does not exist.
When you start up the support group can I be your first member? I too feel so alone where I am and have been begging the Lord to send someone else to my church who doesn't believe in Ellen White so I'm not made to feel like the devil incarnate because I dare not to go along with what she wrote. Like you, I think she added to God's word which we are cautioned not to do and what she said about christmas trees is totally against what the Lord would have us do. I see too many Adventists idolising the works of EGW and placing them above the Bible. It's very frustrating.
DeleteYour not alone concerning your views about EGW. I am still a member of the SDA church but am in a position to teach others they don't have to accept EGW or believe her writings. Yes, I have had pressure to "conform" but will continue to teach as I do until I am disfellowshipped or find another group of believers. Hang in there and just find a man who truely loves Jesus and the let the Holy Spirit work.
DeleteI feel that being in the SDA environment really stunts my spiritual growrh because of Ellen White. They shade the light that is supposed to be on the Biblical gospel and the Biblical condition for being saved. But they have indirectly put all that attention and faith on someone they can not be saved by. Tell me, how you found a good Sabbath-keeping church? I need out too.
Deletewillgaba.sb@gmail.com
I agree with you all! I had thought of leaving, but I believe in the sabbath, etc. I'm afraid to tell SDA's that I have grave misgivings about EGW.
DeleteAmen - not all SDA's believe in Ellen White as a prophet, any more than do all Lutherans regard Luther as a prophet (although as was stated previously, Luther compared himself to OT prophets). Not all Methodists or Presbyterians regard Wesley as a prophet, I could go on. I am an SDA but while I admire EGW and her accomplishments (I could not start a movement that turned into a church of 18 million worldwide), I do not agree with all "the 28", do not agree that the SDA church is the "remnant church" (God has remnant PEOPLE in various churches all over the world). Nor do I regard EGW as a prophet--she was just flat out wrong in many prophecies and copied a great deal of her work from other authors.
ReplyDeleteSam I disagree, in spite of her statements that you quoted, EGW DID consider herself a prophet - she named her books "the Spirit of Prophecy", after all. And, and according to EGW's understanding, her writings have the highest authority: “The message the Lord has given me to bear has been in a straight line from light to light, upward and onward from truth to advanced truth” (3SM 74). She also stated, “The Holy Ghost is the author of the Scriptures and of the Spirit of Prophecy. These are not to be twisted and turned to mean what man may want them to mean . . . .” (3SM 30). So to me she clearly is elevating herself as a prophet. I admire her, some of her writings are encouraging to me, but no for me she is not a prophet.
I believe in "Sola Scriptura", and the GOSPEL of Christ rather than legalism. I am still SDA because I agree with many of its teachings and am certain there will never be a church that I would agree with 100%. I do enjoy Seventh-day Baptist services from time to time, but they are far away. Setting aside the 7th day for family time, rest and worship has benefited me tremendously. I obey Colossians 2:16 and do not condemn others who chose Sunday or any other day as their day of rest/worship. My local church is great, but I don't agree with the constant EGW quotes at church & in the Adult Sabbath School lessons.
SDA, with its 18 million members worldwide, pioneers in health, strong leaders, and other great qualities is definitely NOT a cult. There are many divergent views within our church, as with any other denomination or non-denominational congregation. Anonymous posting on 1-30-15: I agree we DO need a support group within the SDA church for the progressive/liberal wing of the church, which is growing. There are numerous SDA forum groups on the West Coast, but not so much on the East Coast. Be blessed, everyone, remember the Great Commission, and keep your eyes on JESUS. As Christians, we can all agree that He is coming soon!
It's amusing to me how people mistunderstand Col. 2:16. Paul does not say don't judge others for the days they keep, he's telling the gentile Colossians not to let "others" judge them. Big difference.
DeleteNow tell me, who would be judging "uncircumcised" gentiles on what days they were keeping?
Col 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh,
Let's say that the Colossians were keeping Sunday. Who would be judging them? Would other gentiles be judging them? Why?
Would Jews be judging them? Why? The Colossians weren't circumcised so why would the Jews judge them for keeping Sunday?
But, consider for a minute that the Colossians were keeping the Sabbath and God's Feast days. Other Gentiles would judge them, saying "You're not Jewish, why do you keep those days?".
Jews too would judge them, saying, "You're not circumcised, you shouldn't keep these days unless you are circumcised."
Consider how Paul told gentile Corinthians in 1 Cor. 5:8 to keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread. How Paul said that he must by all means "keep" the Feast that is coming in Jerusalem.
Act 18:21
But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.
Christians have been lied to about God's Feasts. They embodied Christ's entire plan of salvation. No one truly understands what Jesus' plan for us is until they keep God's Feasts. Bold statement I know, but do yourselves a favor. Honestly study God's Feasts.
Here is a link to a very good book on the subject.
https://docs.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=http://www.protorah.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/The-Thread-Gods-Apointments-with-History-Ronald-L-Dart.pdf
Kevin McMillen
Morgantown, WV
kljcmc@comcast.net
The book "Ellen Harmon White: American Prophet" should be required reading for all Adventists, as it gives a BALANCED historical view of Sister White--not written by "Apologists", or by EGW "haters", but a balanced straightforward view of her life and ministry. It is definitely an eye opener!
ReplyDeleteI have to believe that God in His infinite wisdom flawlessly chose the men who would decide what books would see their way into the biblical canon of scripture. That what was chosen to become the authoritative word of God was divinely scrutinized by those men being led by the Holy Spirit. Though I am not Catholic or Orthodox Christian and do not have their added Old Testament books in my bible, I agree with the fact that they are of great significant historical and reference value, as do many Jews. But what I do not believe is that God went on to reveal more prophecies to anyone after the book of Revelation was written. Why? Because there was nothing more to reveal. Think about it.
ReplyDeleteIn the Old Testament we have the Creation, the Old Covenant and the Law, and the prediction of the New Covenant through the Messiah to come. In the New Testament we see the New Covenant in Jesus Christ our Savior, and we were taught by Him how to live. We experienced the Cross and the Passion, the gift and indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the beginning of the Church, and instructions and warnings for the growing Church. And God did not end there. Jesus revealed to John on Patmos everything we would need to know about the future, about His return, and about the end of this world as we know it. We have everything we need to know. If we need more information and more prophecy then we are in effect saying that the revelation, the “blueprints”, that our Lord left for us were not enough.
Want-to-be prophets create a spirit of confusion and even chaos within the Body of Christ. At the same time they both add and detract from the Truth and insinuate that God is confusing and changes His mind. He would not be God if He changed His mind. I believe too that people, especially highly intelligent people, feel the need to explain everything in the Bible, but theories can be very dangerous. That’s why I am very careful to remember when I am reading commentaries or any Christian and religious literature outside of the Bible, that the writing is subjective to a human being’s biases and opinions, and not objective as a whole.
My brother converted to Seventh Day Adventism a few years back. I am still Baptist. He is a much newer SDA than I am a Baptist so he is defiantly overzealous. If anyone ever insinuated that he was anything less than a Bible-believing Christian that might make me angry. We definitely do some things differently (I refuse to give up meat) but we both know the Bible is still a mystery, and that God unveils the most important things to us on an individual and private bases, and not through other people. And hey, if he is right and I will sleep in my grave, then I could use the rest. I think eternity is going to be very busy.
I assume that most of the people commenting here are Sabbath keepers so I must ask, have you seriously considered God's Feast days? Please don't just write me off by saying Col. 2 does away with God's Feasts.
ReplyDeleteSDA try to tell people that the plural use of Sabbaths in Col. 2 means the annual feasts and not the weekly Sabbath. Have you ever read Ez. 20 thoroughly? In Ez. 20 God says that his "Sabbaths" (plural) are the sign that he is the YHVH that sanctifies us.
Zech. 14 states that when Jesus returns all nations will keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
Every Sabbath keeper needs to honestly study God's Feasts and not just accept the lies perpetuated by anti-feast keepers. We need to be like the Bereans and study both sides.
So, I ask everyone to read this book. It's titled, "The Thread - God's Appointment With History" by Ronald L. Dart
Here's the link:
https://docs.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=http://www.protorah.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/The-Thread-Gods-Apointments-with-History-Ronald-L-Dart.pdf
Kevin McMillen
Morgantown, WV
kljcmc@comcast.net
I was raised SDA, and thank God have found my way out of the church and now am a member of the Church of all believers and a servant of the Gospel. I really don't know how one can split the baby with Ellen White. What makes the SDA church a distinctive church, and why they separate themselves from other protestants, ties directly to Ellen White's status. The very idea of the remnant church being the actual SDA church, the focus on eschatological beliefs in favor of the gospel, food laws, and the need to "convert" protestant Christians to the "Truth", all flow from a belief that Ellen White was inspired and able to give the "real" interpretation of the Bible.
ReplyDeleteThere are certainly true Christians in the SDA church, just as there are in the Catholic church. But I believe this is in spite of the teachings of the church, not because of them.
It is easy to establish that Ellen White is not a Prophet. Simplly ask if there are any prophesies that where wrong. If the answer is yes, then according to scripture we should not listen to a word she says. There are many specific prophecies that she gave as "thus saith the Lord" that are wrong. One being that she would be alive during Christ's second coming.
The good news is not that there is a remnant church that has the "truth" revealed by revelation to a woman prophetess, and that we can be saved if we are part of the remnant church that keeps the commandments of God. The Good News, the best news ever, is that Christ has paid the price, once for all by his finished work on the cross. All who believe in Him will be saved, not because of any special secret revealed knowledge, not by adherence to the law, not by what we eat or drink, not by Christ + works, but by Christ alone.
My father and mother both thought I was lost when I actually came to faith in Christ and left the SDA church. Ironic, once I was ready to die to everything and trust Christ for my salvation. They argued that I could not be saved unless I accepted the "truth" of the SDA church. So sad. My father has not accepted communion for years because he does not believe he is worthy of it. I pray for him to find the authentic Gospel, but he has been blinded by all of the noise and nonsense of the remnant church.
None of us are worthy of communion but Jesus died so we could have it. I go to an SDA church but use the Bible and common sense to decide what I should and shouldn't follow. I'm not a member so if things got too hot there for some reason I'd just go to another one, I only want to worship God, I'm not interested in living up to anyone else's expectations. As for Ellen White..
DeleteJeremiah 8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed. 9 For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name: I have not sent them, saith the LORD.
Thank you all for these helpful comments to this post. I joined the SDA church over a year ago ...and have been questioning many things (besides keeping the Sabbath) ever since. All the views posted in the eighteen comments before mine have put my mind at ease about my concerns and wondering if I was the only one "in the church" (presently or previously) to feel this way.
ReplyDeleteQn: Are there genuine prophets today?
ReplyDeleteAns: Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Matthew 7:15
the bible here says beware of “false” prophets, it does not say beware of prophets, Just like you cant have a counterfeit without a genuine, you cant have false prophets without true ones. Has any of you ever seen a 10,000 UD$ counterfeit note? Offcorse none coz there exists not a genuine 10,000 USD note. There is nothing new under the sun the preacher (Ecclesiastes) says, Just like in the bible times, false prophets and genuine prophets co-exist at the same time today.
Qn: Was Ellen G White a false prophet?
Ans: the answer to that question depends on the pride of someone. Many of the Pharisees (not all) regarded Jesus as a false prophet, after failing to use scripture to prove him wrong, and he (Jesus) using the Law to prove the teachers of the Law wrong hurt their pride and they plotted to murder him. I have read many of Ellen G White’s writings (not all) and haven’t found anything wrong with them sofar. But does that mean they can’t have mistakes, obviously not, Paul and Peter once argued about the importance of circumcision, one of them was right the other wrong, do you think the wrong one wisent God’s apostle, obviously no, James (Acts 15:19-20) and Paul (1 Cor 8:1-13) had deferent views regarding eating meat offered to idols, Prophet Nathan backed David to build the temple against Gods will, Prophet John the Baptist doubted whether what he had been holy spiritually inspired to preach (John 1:35-46) was real (Math 11:2-3) the list can go on and on. There could be something probably according to the way you see are false and dint come true, but don’t forget the true ones like when she warned against smoking tobacco at a time when highly respected medical practitioners were recommending it to their patients as medication. Well false prophets are sent by the Devil to destroy Gods folk, if Ellen G White was a false prophet, then surely the Devil made a loss, coz her books have led many to Jesus and don’t pretend you haven’t seen or at least had about them.
We should welcome prophecies, but they should always be tested.
Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil (1 Thes 5:19-22).
Not long ago, I got an email from someone from another country than where I live. The email included 7 Bible texts and 43 Ellen White quotations. He didn’t call himself an “historic adventist” but his emphasis on Ellen White’s writings is typical of those who do.
ReplyDeletePart of the problem is that people who call themselves historic adventists quote some of Ellen White’s writings while ignoring--and in many cases contradicting--other statements that she wrote.
The other problem is that people who call themselves historic adventists don’t go back far enough. They teach what they were taught in the first half of the twentieth century and imagine that is what adventist taught in the last half of the nineteenth century.
I challenge such people to ask this question: Of the things that were taught by adventists before the great disappointment, which of those things were taught by adventists after the great disappointment? I submit that a person who really is an historic adventist is focused on those doctrines that were taught by adventists both before and after the great disappointment.
...wow so many good and heartfelt thoughts and good people here. I am a former SDA and pastored for 3 years... There is a lot to SDA history and theology over the years.. To Roger.. If you can procure copies of early Adventist material, you will likely see that "conditional immortality," the annihilation of the wicked (after being raised to final condemnation), the Saturday sabbath, and the change of place/ministry in heaven (Crosier's distinction between the forgiveness and blotting out of sins, which he later repudiated) seem to be pretty much what was carried over. George Knight's compilation, 1844 and Sabbatarian Adventism has a lot of helpful material... I do not subscribe to all of this now... but it is offered in a gesture of friendship...
DeleteLeft the SDA church for one year because of concerns about Ellen G. White, her doctrines and Sabbarh. Went to a Christian Pentacostal Sunday-going church for one year. Was going to get rebaptized there and become a member; somehow, didn’t happen. Met many good Christians there but they were not more knowledgeable or more loving than Adventists, which I expected since I figured they were “New Covenant” Christians. Went away with an SDA church congregation to Camp Frenda and just rethought my life, my anger and my opinions. Coming back to the SDA church since the SDA church I am part of feels like family. Jesus is my saviour and prophet. What day I go to church does not matter: Jesus matters. Romans 14:1-7. Still don’t believe in EGW but I don’t have to trash and hurt people that do. I can disagree without being mean-spirited. If you think you are Christian and you think you are right but you are mean and argumentative to those you disagree with, you are not a Christian. I realized I was being a jerk by trashing people with different opinions than me. Be led by the Holy Spirit, read the Scriptures, pray, be kind to others, listen to many different opinions and then go with your convictions and your conscience. Let God evaluate others. Stay away from nasty, critical people masquerading as Christians who think they are doing God a favour by critiquing other Christians.
ReplyDeleteWe are all Christians and yet, we beat the crud out of each other over EGW, sanctuary, hell, death, Saturday (sabbath), Sunday (lord’s day), feasts. We ALL got enemies in the secular world and yet we are cooking each other’s goose and persecuting each other. Does it make any sense why someone would not want to join Christianity? We are all anchored and betting the whole thing on Jesus Christ of Nazareth: if he ain’t the real deal, nothing else matters. Nothing. Love God and love others get lost underneath the doctrines we like to push before God to say, “hey,do you like me more than the others”. How very James and John of us (Luke 9:54,55). It is fun to have debates and it is good to have an opinion, but when are we gonna say honestly, “I don’t really know” (so I can listen rationally to your opinion if you listen to mine). When are Christians en masse going to jump from Level 4 on the Kohlberg scale to Level 5 on the Kohlberg scale (Tim Jennings; Come and Reason) and going to achieve the Holy Spirit heart surgery (Romans 5:5) by letting Jesus in?
DeleteHi Andrew: I don't believe in EGW either, but I admire her. Still, it feels unauthentic for me to have this belief & remain an Adventist. How do you invite non-believers to a church you don't 100% agree with?
DeleteHasn’t happened to me yet. Don’t have an answer for you. I went to the pentacostal church for a year and didn’t believe that God is going to throw people into hell for eternal conscious torment either. So for the two churches I have gone to in my life, I don’t agree with either 100%. I don’t think I agree with anyone about anything 100%. Does that preclude me then from personal relationships or from any membership anywhere. If someone wants to find membership, family, comadrieship in any church, I would say: go where your heart and conscience tell you to go. If someone asks me, I would say that I do not personally believe that EGW was a prophet but it is my opinion and my opinion could be wrong. I would also say why I go the SDA church: because I can give back, because I can contribute, because the pastor lets me preach and I can influence people with the righteousness by faith gospel and with the character of Christ. They can take that as they wish and if EGW is a stumbling block for them, I totally get it. I preach and wish to portray Christ and him crucified, not EGW.
Deleteif you dont beleive in EW why are you sda read fundermental believes her writings are the church
ReplyDeleteI said I was a sabbath keeper
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ReplyDeleteI’ve been a member of the SDA Church since I was a teenager and this is a subject that has always intrigued me. I remember reading her statement in Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 1, page 193 where she said that some slaves will not be resurrected. This was problematic because this contradicts Jesus’ teachings in John 5:28-29 where He said everyone who has ever died will either be in the resurrection of the good or the resurrection of the evil. There's no way around this--EGW and the Bible do not align with each other here. And I’ve come across numerous other statements she’s made that simply are inconsistent with plain verses in the Bible.
ReplyDeleteA lot of people who believe in EGW are adamant about their beliefs, even if it means pointing out supposed errors and contradictions in the BIble itself to prove their point; I've always found this very bizarre. I’ve know many people who say “She never claimed to be a prophet” or they say “She wasn’t infallible” BUT if you give examples where she made incorrect statements or examples where she contradicted the Bible, they never admit it. To them, she IS a prophet and she IS infallible even though they don’t verbalize it this way. And then they will do everything possible to twist and turn whatever she said so that it fits the Bible, or vice versa.
She has also made some “prophetic” statements which simply didn’t come to pass, such as her statement that the seven last plagues would be happening during her lifetime, amongst others. I’ve even read the White Estate website’s explanations, and frankly the majority of them are weak. I’ve concluded that, at worst, she may be a false prophet; and at best, a well-meaning human being who wrote some nice things albeit mixed with some errors.
People have asked me to provide examples of her contradictions and when I do, they’re all readily dismissed without even giving them any thought. It’s usually wasted energy and ends up in circular arguments. I'm turned off whenever I see or hear references to EGW. A lot of my fellow SDAs cherry-pick certain statements she makes if they sound good or if they are BIblically sound, but gloss over others which contradict the Bible.
She is way too elevated, quoted too often, and her writings are treated on par with the Bible. Most pastors quote her; every quarterly lesson study quotes her; and even the baptismal vows indicate that the “Spirit of Prophecy” is referring to her writings. I find all of these things borderline heresy if not heresy altogether. If I had the power, I would have the denomination remove such practices.
In addition, our church continues to hold on the doctrine that states Jesus moved from the Holy Place in the heavenly sanctuary to the Most Holy Place in 1844; and the doctrine about the supposed 2300-year prophecy, both of which require extensive mental gymnastics to achieve. In reality, no one has ever picked up their Bible, read it, and concluded that anything theologically significant happened in 1844. It is simply a doctrine that SDAs hold on to out of tradition because it is connected to the formation of our church and EGW promoted these teachings in her writings. Our church condemns the practice of keeping traditions if they conflict with the Word of God, but it does the same thing itself.
A lot of SDAs take pride in having distinct doctrines, so if you try to tell a fellow SDA that you don’t believe in EGW or the 1844 doctrine, some will tell you that you are not an SDA at all. Then they take an illogical leap to say you might as well deny all the teachings of the church overall. I have no reason to deny all the teachings of this church. For me, I believe the vast majority of what the SDA church teaches is Biblical. My allegiance ultimately is to God and not to any denomination. Every church has some sort of way it errs from the truth and our church is no different. I would love to connect with any other SDAs who rely ONLY on the Bible and not EGW. It would be refreshing to meet others who share my sentiments.
Hello,
DeleteWell said and clearly conveyed! I learnt so much from reading your insightful and compelling comments.
I am not a SDA. I am a Christian who is at home wherever the Bible is taught in all its fullness (with no compulsory extras!).
I realize you are not speaking against the SDA church, but against false teaching and the diluting of errors. I believe there are other SDAs out there who believe as you do. I have had the pleasure of meeting some and I do hope you find each other.
I am troubled by the fact that the modern SDA church is distancing itself from EGW, but does not do the same with her teaching, observing mandates that were given with spurious intentions.
For my part, I am troubled by the SDA church's ever-so-subtlety disguised belief in their own superiority and 'chosen'mindset.
All those who are are saved by God's grace through faith are the elect, which EGW openly taught was not the case. Not only did she teach that SDA's were the faithful remnant, she taught that SDAs should not even pray for people like me (fact not fiction).
This is what ultimately divides SDAs, from within their own church and from other churches. It is essentially what troubles other Christian groups and why there will always be an 'us and them' mentality instead of a united in Christ belief.
I have yet to hear an SDA, without reservation, acknowledge that other Christian groups that do not hold to all the 28 beliefs are in right standing with God. There is always implied judgement and a hint of impending doom. SDAs are right and every other Christian group are very, very wrong. How God left His Church was in such total until the Adventists came along no-one seems willing to explain.
I wish you well and that other Bible-dependent SDAs would follow you in your forthright commitment to the Word of God, without the whisperings of EGW.
Agreed. In Luke 9:49-50, it says, “And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in Your name; and we forbad him, because he follows not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.” The disciples themselves had a conceited view that no one other than themselves were abiding by God’s Word and doing His will. Anyone who believes in Christ as their Savior and Lord of their life will obtain salvation. It’s because of His grace and our individual faith that we are saved, and not our membership of any denomination
DeleteSabbath keeper
DeleteIs there a Facebook group for those of us who want to remain SDA's because we believe in the sabbath, the state of the dead, the Father and Son godhead,bit do NOT believe in Ellen White, or at least,have doubts about her? I couldn't find anything. I don't want to hate on her or bash her because I believe she was a good woman, but I have many questions and misgivings, so a forum for discussion with like-minded individuals would be so helpful. Admitting doubts about EGW to another SDA is tantamount to heresy and apostasy in the eyes of EGW followers -- it's like saying you doubt the existence of God. Thanks much! I'm relieved to find there are others who feel as I do.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, you will have a hard time coming across individuals who are willing to have an honest dialogue about EGW's place in the Church. I have tried numerous times to have these kinds of discussions in a church setting but it has never happened because a lot of people are uncomfortable with this topic. In most cases, people who believe in EGW refuse to ever admit she contradicts the Bible. And people who reject EGW tend to also reject some of the core teachings that SDAs believe also. It's oftentimes one extreme to the next. It is hard to find people who have a healthy balance in holding on to the Biblical teachings of the SDA church, while also rejecting its unbiblical teachings. If you, or anyone, would like to connect with me, please feel free to visit my site: www. GavaskarReid . com or you can email me at gmreid86 @ yahoo . com . May God bless you and keep you.
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